climate change and how the left has been misleading public

[Outlaw Yogi]

Then buy a waterfront property.

I'll wait to the hysteria really kicks in and buy 3, then rent them to the mining company execs who won't give a damn

They might if their family got washed away.

You fail to see how carbon taxes/ETS will be passed on to those that can least afford it. The poor and struggling.

Really? What gives you that idea?
Actually, if you'd paid attention, you'd have noticed I have repeatedly said ETS is a deliberate failure and a scam to sell licences to pollute more than we do now ... ETS is not about reducing GHG emissions, its about making money out of making things worse ... and carbon tax propper has missed its window of opportunity to be effective .. its too late, we missed the boat, we're all gunna phuking drown OK.

Any govt compensation will be quickly eaten by market forces who can smell a scam a mile off...and this is a scam that no .gov can possibly think they have any control over.

No argument there, but then wouldn't that be obvious?

It is high time that govts realised this. Any interference with market forces is doomed to failure

The market has failed mate, and globalism, free trade, neo-liberalism, ect is all a phuking basket case.

I'm gettin' pretty good at the doom & gloom $#!+, hey?

[IQS.RLOW]

I put the doomseekers in the same class as I put the doom savers. Both are full of shit and are professing garbage
Correlation does not equal causation.

I would also consider the impetus of the 'cure being worse than the cause' which is something not considered by nearly all advocates.

You only have to look at the spike in rare earths which are needed by all new age namby pamby i'm rich enough to afford a product manufactured in a 3rd world country where they don't give a shit. The production of rare earths is far more damaging to the environment and likely to grow exponentially , but it is more concentrated so the tax can't be so broadly applied...until the shit hits the fan...how convenient

Dear .gov- Stay the fuck away from the free market. You are useless pustules without a clue

[Outlaw Yogi]

I put the doomseekers in the same class as I put the doom savers. Both are full of shit and are professing garbage
Correlation does not equal causation.

I coined 'doomseekers' myself and think it some what self explanitory, but I question the concept of saving doom, I reason you meant 'save us from doom' crowd ... maybe GHG demonisers would identify the crowd you mean ... anyway, alot of what they say is only wrong 'coz its too late to prevent run away global warming ... many have the best of intentions in their desire to save the world, but from my perspective they've become unrealistic by failing to recognise we're already in the run away global warming scenario and so anything we do other than moving into mitigation and survival mode (eg relocate essential infrastructure to higher ground inland) is a waste of breath.
In a way its like they're in denial and clutching at messianic social regimes, like ETS and carbon markets.

I would also consider the impetus of the 'cure being worse than the cause' which is something not considered by nearly all advocates.

So for argument's sake, if runaway GW was avoidable, you think potential short term economic hardship for some (or even all) is worse than inundation of every coastal region on the planet or a re-run of the Permian extinction?

You only have to look at the spike in rare earths which are needed by all new age namby pamby i'm rich enough to afford a product manufactured in a 3rd world country where they don't give a shit. The production of rare earths is far more damaging to the environment and likely to grow exponentially , but it is more concentrated so the tax can't be so broadly applied...until the shit hits the fan...how convenient

Rare earth mining is dirty/radioactive but neodymium makes magnets more powerful and lighter, which makes our devices more energy efficient, and besides if it wasn't for rare earths we wouldn't have you beaut monitors and screens for our slag-fests, and drug dealers would have to use landlines ... but ultimately they won't melt the planet down.
Here's a prediction for you. Y'know all these vehicle manufacturers getting into plug in electric cars and hydrogen fuel cell electric cars? Well I reckon they're all going to fail. Sure they can be made to function, but plug ins are more energy consumptive than hydrocarbon powered internal combution engined vehicles and fuel cells require heavy and expensive platinum (currently US$1,822.00 p/oz) and simply wont be practicle out of suburbia.
The 2 vehicle manufacturers which I give the best chance still existing in 20 to 30 years are Mazda and BMW.
And the reason is because they are the only companies smart enough to manufacture internal combustion engined vehicles running on hydrogen.

Dear .gov- Stay the fuck away from the free market. You are useless pustules without a clue

Never realised you were anarchist.

[Outlaw Yogi]

Dr. James E. Hansen, a physicist by training, directs the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, a laboratory of the Goddard Space Flight Center and a unit of the Columbia University Earth Institute, but he testifies here as a private citizen.
23 Jun 2008
Global Warming Twenty Years Later
http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5798

[Outlaw Yogi]

Extreme winter weather linked to climate change
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/ ... 4L20110302

As the planet warms up, more water from the oceans is evaporated into the atmosphere, said Todd Sanford, a climate scientist at the Union of Concerned Scientists. At the same time, because the atmosphere is warmer, it can hold onto more of the moisture that it takes in.

Intense storms are often the result when the atmosphere reaches its saturation point, Sanford said.

This year, a series of heavy storms over the U.S. Midwest to the Northeast have dropped up to 400 percent of average snows in some locations, said Jeff Masters, director of meteorology at Weather Underground.

The amount of water in that snowpack is among the highest on record, Masters said.

[Outlaw Yogi]

Democrats roll out climate change big guns, Republicans remain immune
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ma ... epublicans

The majority of Republicans in Congress now deny the existence of man-made climate change, or oppose reductions in greenhouse gas emissions, according to a report by the Center for American Progress.

Jay Inslee, a Washington Democrat, lamented on Tuesday that even if Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, and Einstein were testifying, Republicans would still not accept the science until Antarctica had melted.

[Outlaw Yogi]

New Report Warns Against Investments in New or Existing Coal-Fired Power Plants
http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_releas ... -0510.html

WASHINGTON (March 9, 2011) – The cost of constructing or retrofitting coal-fired electric power plants and the rising cost of coal have made coal power an extremely risky long-term investment, according to a report released today by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS). The report, “A Risky Proposition: The Financial Hazards of New Investments in Coal Plants,” also identified a number of other factors that make investing in coal a gamble, including its continuing threat to public health and the environment.

Nuclear Power: Still Not Viable without Subsidies
http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear_power/nuc ... 23-11-head

Government subsidies to the nuclear power industry over the past fifty years have been so large in proportion to the value of the energy produced that in some cases it would have cost taxpayers less to simply buy kilowatts on the open market and give them away, according to a February 2011 report by the Union of Concerned Scientists.

Subsidies were originally intended to provide temporary support for the fledgling nuclear power industry, but the promised day when the industry could prosper without them and power from nuclear reactors would be “too cheap to meter” has yet to arrive. It is unlikely to arrive any time soon, as cost estimates for new reactors continue to escalate and the nuclear power lobby demands even more support from taxpayers. Piling new subsidies on top of existing ones will provide the industry with little incentive to rework its business model to internalize its considerable costs and risks.

[boxy]

Nuclear Power: Still Not Viable without Subsidies
http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear_power/nuc ... 23-11-head

A carbon tax future will tip the balance a bit more towards nuclear.

BTW... no railing from you against "green power" (ie. the hippy stuff like wind/solar/tidal) support, I notice, Yogi.

Let me guess... they don't recieve millions of our tax dollars to survive at their current, marginally viable, level?

[Outlaw Yogi]

A carbon tax future will tip the balance a bit more towards nuclear.

BTW... no railing from you against "green power" (ie. the hippy stuff like wind/solar/tidal) support, I notice, Yogi.

Let me guess... they don't recieve millions of our tax dollars to survive at their current, marginally viable, level?

I posted this (below)earlier in your 'Carbon & farms' thread, but think it addresses your comments above.

As for "green power" or "green energy" as electricty companies refer to it up here, well from my experience its a scam.
For example a few years ago, Ergon energy (Qld govt owned electricity provider) sent me a letter thanking me for signing upto 'green energy' ($10 extra per bi monthly bill) which they claimed was generated by wind farms and hydroelectric dams.
I rang Ergon and asked "When did I sign upto green energy?" ... they couldn't answer and removed my account from their green energy scheme.
Y'see I did a bit of research. First I checked out who owns all the wind farms in OZ. Ergon owns 1 wind farm. Its on Thursday Is and is not connected to the grid, so my green energy couldn't come from wind farms.
Then I checked out who owns all the hydroelectric dams in OZ. Ergon does not own any hydroelectric facilities, and the only hydroelectric dam in Qld is Wivenhoe dam out the back of Brisbane, which is owned by SEQ Water (Qld govt owned), so the only way Ergon could have green energy is to buy it from SEQ Water .... so all bull$#!+ AFAIC.

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I reckon if all the subsidy schemes for all the competing forms of electricity and fuel production were scrapped, and let the various players loose to evolve naturally, we probably wouldn't even need a tax to discourage hydrocarbon induced emissions.
Nothing can compete with solar applications on cost and value for money, so would dominate the energy market without interference for vested interests.



If the $100 million in grants to solar developers (in OZ) were abolished, we'd probably only see mini solar PV panels in electronics shops.
If the $9 billion + in fuel subsidies to the coal industry (in OZ) was abolished we'd see solar merchants selling large scale solar PV arrays virtually everywhere.
If billion$ in construction grants and operating subsidies to the nuclear industry was abolished (in every nuke nation), there would be no nuclear power industry.
If billion$ in R&D grants to oil companies so Woodside petroleum can sell ethanol (in OZ), and the US govt drops its subsidy for bio-diesel (also sold in OZ), the hydrogen fuel industry would take over, but as it is, only Mazda and BMW have released IC engined vehicles running on hydrogen.

[Outlaw Yogi]

How much future sea level rise? More evidence from models and ice sheet observations.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... ce-sheets/

We’ve already discussed the new evidence that Greenland’s glaciers are speeding up. What is new this week is an effort to evaluate the impact of future warming on Greenland by looking at what happened to it last time it got very warm — namely during the Last InterGlacial (LIG) period, about 125,000 years ago. The same group of authors looked at this in two ways, using NCAR’s Community Climate System model (CCSM) coupled to a state-of-the-art 3-D ice sheet model.

On the other hand, none of the new evidence points in the direction of smaller rates of sea level rise in the future, and probably nudge us closer to the upper end of the IPCC predictions. Those who have already been ignoring or naysaying those predictions now have even less of a leg to stand on. Coastal managers, real estate developers, and insurance companies, at the least, would be wise to continue to take such predictions seriously.** As Don Kennedy and Brooks Hanson write in the lead Editorial, “accelerated glacial melting and larger changes in sea level should be looked at as probable events, not as hypothetical possibilities.”

EDIT ADDITION -

New Cyclone Belt May Be Forming Off Brazil
http://www.earthweek.com/2011/ew110318/ew110318e.html

Seal Pups Die Due to Thinning Ice off Canada
http://www.earthweek.com/2011/ew110318/ew110318b.html