The perfect world

[cynik]

Our resident chimp has been screeching recently, and mercifully his brevity allows some useful analysis.

Consider:

"Tell that to the Iraqi soldiers dying so that their brothers and sisters never suffer another Saddam, or Al Qeada theocracy.

Though, you probably are in no place to tell them anything."

This is a fascinating insight into the mind of the thug. Firstly, look at the claim made in the initial sentence.

"Iraqi soldiers dying so that their brothers and sisters never suffer another Saddam, or Al Qeada theocracy."

NEVER SUFFER ANOTHER SADDAM.

Leaving aside the clearly false insinuation that "another" Al Qeada would replace the presumably previous Al Qeada theocracy, what can we say about this promise that the reason these soldiers kill is so that NEVER AGAIN will another Saddam stalk the land?

Is this not the same promise we were given when the glorious US troops invaded to kill Saddam?

Were we not promised that NEVER AGAIN would the irarky people be subject to ultra violence and horrific abuse by an uncaring military authority?

And then, for the next six years....... the Irarky people were subject to massively increased levels of horrific violence because an uncaring military sat on its fat arse and let the death squads do as they liked? Indeed, while these glorious democratic soldiers tortured prisoners, bombed children and refused to establish order?

But the thing to take away from frogen's grunting in the PROMISE. NEVER AGAIN.

Consider, he expects to be taken seriously. He thinks that he is not only credible, but inherently so. This is evident from the latter sentence:

"you probably are in no place to tell them anything."

Why? Why are the hired thugs, the kids with guns, the experts? Why can civilians with far more life experience tell these kids nothing?

Why are we in no place to tell them anything?

Clearly, because they are soldiers. BECAUSE they are doing great work, THEREFORE they must know best. If they did not know best, how could they do great work?

This circular reasoning is not just simian in its simplicty, is also flies directly in the face of the facts. The fatbody armchair warriors who love to watch the war on the free vee will openly make the case that terror is being reduced, that irarkies live in a wondeful democracy, and that Saddam was to blame for the problems in that country for the past seven years. This is despite the clear facts that the whole nation has been terrorized and continues to live in fear, that the government was hand picked and controlled by the US military, the Sunni's did not vote, and that Saddam has been dead for half a decade.

This is what we are up against, when we face homo militarus in debate. Utter, seething stupidity. Arrogance and pride in violence that is so strong, one simply wastes time speaking with it.

This is why I no longer listen to folks in unifrom, and why I discard their opinions without listening anymore. Fundamentally, soldiers are folks who take orders and who do not question what they are told. They'll all object to that when outside their own tribe, but the reality is unshakable.

Smart folks do not play soldiers. Smart folks can earn money without selling their soul to the state for a handful of silver and beer, for the chance to get laid without paying for it by the minute in a whorehouse.

Soldiers are STUPID. They are hired killers, and they ought not be spoken to as though they are decent, reasonable folks.

This is where I grow tired of the US fascination with the glory of anything in uniform, and where I see the greatest problem with humanity rising above hatred and systematic violence as part of our political economy. if we worship young thugs, idiots who can't even spell their own names, waht chance do have of stopping the folks ho make money from this disease?

If asswipes like frogen can talk shit to your face and state that you have no position to comment because you are not like them, what possible chance can there ever be of becoming free of thugs and warfare? None, is the short answer.

hence, I put it to you all that soldiers are not respectable, that the flag is a rag for mopping up blood, and that patriotism is the dying gasp of a murderous caveman.

I further submit that if you can't see this, you are a fucking coward who is too scared to tell the fat square heads in uniform that they are stupid, violent and boring. It is cowardice, because we all know it to be true, but so few are willing to say it directly. So I'll say it for everyone.

If humanity is to move forward to a global future without war and the butchering of children for entertainment and profit, we MUST be rid of our flags. We must learn to hold "soldiers" in contempt, to treat them as the criminals they are, and to ridicule the idiocy of those who preen themselves in uniform.

It won't happen in our lifetimes, but it must happen eventually. the truth is going to catch up with me someday. It has to, or it doesn't matter.

[JW Frogen]

Butchering children?

Like the secularism of Saddam you praised? How many children were butchered by him. You loved the guy.

That sort of butchering?

No need to listen to Iraqis in elections, Cynik knows how Iraqi children want to be butchered, under Saddam. His parents need never vote and decide their own future, Cynik has decided for them.

I am sure you think Mugabe is a saint as well?

Cynik, your sit on your fat ass-self rightous do nothing pacifism in the face of real tyranny has killed more people than any democratic military ever will.

The only difference is, they know what they are doing, and you don’t want to what you have done.

Or will not do.

[cynik]

So, if I follow your line of argument.... you acknowledge that children have been butchered by US weapons in irark....

BUT.... that is totally OK, because people like me who object to this violence are therefore supporting anyone who you declare to be evil......

BECAUSE.... if it were not necessary for US weapons to kill kids, you wouldn't do it.....

BUT.... because of people like me, people you think are evil kill more kids than you....

OR... at least as many.....

BECAUSE..... blah blah freedom democracy BLAH BLAH army pension blah blah never worked blah blah slurp on a cock

You are the dumb fat kid who gets caught torturing a cat, and who then points his finger at the person who caught him and screams "You fucking hate the mice! You make me do this because.... the fucking mice. Yeah, that I am protecting! YOU ARE THE fluffy bunny! YOU!"

see, at the end of the day i would maybe think different of you if didn't know you so well. I know you enjoy your blood lust, and I know you feel ten feet tall when you talk down to people and crack retarded jokes about how grand it is to be a US super soldier. SAVING THE WORLD.

Your no better than a commie. Like the commies, your starting premis is that you are saving the world. Everything flows from that insane belief, floating around inside your otherwise empty shit can called a skull.

What really boggles the brain is HOW THE FUCK? How can a guy who can't spell, who is essentially as thick as three short planks nailed together, HOW THE FUCK can such a man believe he is saving the world? I mean, Bush I can understand. He might actually believe that he is the only man with the power to "help those poor dumb fluffy bunnies". That is profoundly stupid and culturally arrogant, but it is at least fathomable.

But you can't even tie you shoe laces without dribbling onto the ground and getting a vacant look behind your eyes.

When folks like YOU pick up a weapon for the state, and believe that you have the smarts to save other folks, let alone the whole world...... we that is beyond stupid, and ventures into the realm of the insane. I reckon if you were a fish, you'd fucking drown.

[JW Frogen]

*Yawn*

Going on fours years, no new material. Let alone thought.

You simply do not get, can not get, will never get, that sitting on a London Bus being fat and depressed, and then typing a rage filled rant about people you so desperately believe are like you, fat and depressed, is not really doing anything for the world.

That saying you hate war and death while nothing about it except chomping down your fifth kebab in the face of tyranny is not doing anything about it.

All you can do is rant, rage, and pretend you do not enjoy the horror that you will do nothing about, risk anything to stop, but that gives you the one subject you can rant and rage about on an Internet forum.

That gives you your indentity.

When God handed out courage he gave some to you too Cynik, why did you throw it back and then blame the world?

[Rainbow Moonlight]

Under Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath party things improved for kids in Iraq - increasingly improved health systems, water, power and education, and lowered infant mortality. They also improved for women and Iraq became more secular and more modern. Things got worse for kids only once sanctions were imposed.

Those things are true, despite that it is also true that he ruled with an iron fist, that there was not freedom of speech, that torture and rape were quite commonplace in dealing with political prisoners, and that he led Iraq into wars that cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

The sanctions and how the US insisted they were implemented shot the infant mortality rate right up, resulting in hundreds of thousands of children dying who wouldn't have if sanctions were not in place. It was heartless and possibly illegal.

Infact, if he was not as capable as he was in administering food rations then many millions of people in Iraq would have died under the sanctions. When the invasion occurred a once healthy economy had turned into a nation where approximately 70 percent of the population existed on food rations. The economy was destroyed by sanctions, and employment with it. The bombings that destroyed water and power plants and bridges and the refusal to allow in items for maintenance and repair for oil and water plants combined to create deep suffering for millions of Iraqis.

The punishment inflicted on the Iraqi population, largely due to American decisions, will probably never be forgotten or forgiven. It was grossly unfair and inhumane.

That you cannot see what was done to them Frogen, can only be because you so strongly support the the country of your birth. You are a decent man. I think if you could brign yourself to see what happened to a whole country full of people at the whims of the US you would not like it any better than myself or Cynik or thousands of others do.

[JW Frogen]

Ele, the Baithist party did indeed improve living conditions for Iraqis. (The Left often criticizes the CIA for supporting them over the Communists but then lauds their result) but Saddam did not run the Baithist party (only their terror apparatus) until 1979, after which he directly on the first day committed mass extra judicial murder of many of his former colleagues to solidify power.

He then spent the next 12 years in power fighting almost 10 years of war, sending those children’s fathers, and if we look at the age of many of the soldiers, those children, to die in wars of direct conquest. They had no other purpose. This drained resources and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, (it is estimated over a million people in the region).

You can not tell me that was an improvement for Iraqi children, let alone the Iranian children or Kuwaiti children after Saddam slaughtered their fathers or families. (I saw the results of the latter personally in Kuwait City. Do not tell Kuwaitis Saddam was good for children.)

Saddam also committed genocide against Kurds, children included, in the late 80s, a mass extermination ethnic cleansing campaign, and against Shia, including children, in the early 90s. How was this good for children?

The one point you do have is that the post First Gulf War sanctions did hurt the living conditions of the children left, the children being groomed for Saddam's next war.

Those sanctions only where there because Saddam would not live up to his 1991 cease fire and violated 12 UN resolutions. He caused them. Note the dramatic improvement of living conditions for Kurds, including children when he lost control of that area, they in effect became self governing, with the No Fly Zones in the mid 90s.

Now here is the problem, you don’t support the war, but without the war the sanctions must remain in place to keep Saddam from rebuilding his military and going back in to finish off both the Kurds and Kuwait. (The latter he openly admitted he would have done at his trial, he bragged about it.)

There were no easy options here, the only way Iraqi children could have a future is without Saddam.

Now I agree, Bush and company fucked up the occupation big time, did not put enough military force on the ground to control the county, and so Sunni-ex Baithist insurgents and latter Al Qeada kept destroying or halting the rebuilding of services, services the US was desperately trying to provide, and also almost ignited a Sunni Shia civil war (though Saddam must bare much of the blame for that as well, as the hatred was long in coming, caused by over a decade of his oppression of the Shia).

I have posts on the old PA as early as 2003 where I criticize Bush, in particular Rumsfeld for the way there are handling the occupation.

Still, they brought Iraqis self determination inn three elections, (a fourth on the way and there are good indications of Sunni reconcillation in this one) under direct threat from Saddam and the Baithists to boycott; that they would die if they voted. They did vote, and they not write in the name of Saddam.

It has nothing to do with patriotism; Shrink was no US patriot, but after years of studying the subject formally as his post graducate thesis he came to the conclusion the US was trying to do the right thing in Iraq but the Administration was hampered by Conservative notions of just what freedom is and how to apply it. "Negative freedom", liberate and leave the rest alone. Read his Uni paper on the subject, it is quite good. Just type in his real name and you can find it.

I think the war was the best alternative in a choice of bad alternatives; a war with good motives, poorly executed. Until the Surge that is, which is bringing in optimistic results and security in many parts of the country, including a return of services.

I don’t think Cynik gives a fuck about Iraq or it’s children, in years he has never bothered to even learn about who the different groups are and has been all over the place, from calling them sand niggers, calling for the extermination of Islam, to praising and both condemning Saddam.

All he has is an entertaining, self rightous (and to the informed, comic) rant.

You Ele I do believe care, you have researched some of the history, but your reflexive anti US bias keeps you from researching all the history, or listening to the voice of the current Iraqi people. (The Left never really understands how condescending, almost racist, it is to dismiss their heroic decision in three elections.)

Both of us however, I believe care about children. Cynik’s gross obsession with personal violence and child abuse, his libelous personal speculations however is a point no sane or emotionally stable person would make simply to use as a personal attack in a political disagreement. (That some find it amusing, is intself disburbing.)

His interjection of personal hate and violence on a subject he has yet to prove he cares enough to learn about not only reveals emotional problems, but also a very dark and narcissistic soul.