Fuck supermarkets

[mantra.]

Mantra do NOT cook the meat for your dog! His teeth and digestion are suited to eating raw meat.

My dog gets a chicken wing straight out the freezer, I just take the clingwrap off

Well Monk - I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Vets are now complaining that raw chicken wings & necks are causing serious digestive problems in dogs resulting in life threatening blockages.

We can no longer throw an old bone to a dog because as our food absorption is diminishing - so are our dogs digestive systems. We can give them those large raw leg bones to suck and chew on, but we can't give them chicken bones, raw or cooked - or any cooked bones for that matter, although chicken meat is fine.

My Misty (dog) likes her steaks & chops (bone removed) medium rare and after a lifetime of feeding dogs - I have found the right balance. Once a week I give her tuna & pasta for the Omega 3, but the only way good health can be maintained is to give a dog fresh meat. If I do give her mince occasionally - it's put in the George Foreman to get rid of the fat, although she's not partial to mince and prefers her steaks.

PS. I have not had one dog that will touch raw meat. They've all found it unpalatable.

[freediver]

like I said Jonathans do not store so the s/mart won't stock it no matter HM people plead for it to do so!

Yes they will. They stock a few seasonal items. There just has to be demand for it. They are there to make money, not corrupt society with inferior foods. People used to argue that they wouldn;t stock roo meat. But enough people asked and now they do.

but we can't give them chicken bones, raw or cooked - or any cooked bones for that matter

Mantra nothing you posted actually contradicts Monk. Raw is better, regardless of those other issues.

PS. I have not had one dog that will touch raw meat. They've all found it unpalatable.

If you raise a human child on Maccas, they will not touch raw vegies like carrot. Does that make it a good idea? They won't touch it because you have trained/spoilt them to eat unhealthy food.

[mantra.]

but we can't give them chicken bones, raw or cooked - or any cooked bones for that matter

Mantra nothing you posted actually contradicts Monk. Raw is better, regardless of those other issues.

PS. I have not had one dog that will touch raw meat. They've all found it unpalatable.

If you raise a human child on Maccas, they will not touch raw vegies like carrot. Does that make it a good idea? They won't touch it because you have trained/spoilt them to eat unhealthy food.

I don't know how you can compare giving a dog fresh meat moderately cooked to feeding Maccas to a child FD. Most of my dogs have lived to a ripe old age, although they have all been a little fussy. When my children were young - one only wanted salads, fruit and rice, while the other preferred vegetables and pasta. Neither of them were overly inclined towards red meat and preferred tuna, salmon or chicken and no food was ever forced on them. I was forced to eat a variety of foods when young and there were many instances of having to rush outside to bring it back up again. We are all individuals in our tastes and digestion - including animals and the only important consideration is that we have a healthy palatable diet according to our tastes. But there has been recent speculation about raw meat and chicken wings & necks fed to dogs.

To continue with the controversy, the next question that often arises is whether or not to cook home prepared food or feed it raw. As with any change in your pets routine, consult your veterinarian for specific recommendations about your particular pet. There are many veterinarians who are very uncomfortable with raw feeding, and I will not say that all of their fears are unfounded, but I also recognize that there are risks with any food you feed. Aside from the many recent recalls, I have seen a dog choke and almost die from inhaling a piece of kibble that got lodged in his trachea. And that is not to say that kibble kills dogs, but to recognize that things can happen regardless of your diet choices.

With raw food, there are some realities. The first concern is feeding whole bones. If you are feeding chicken wings, necks, or other unground bone as a calcium source, you need to be sure that your animal is chewing the bones well before swallowing. “Gulpers” should never be offered whole bones.The second big concern with raw feeding is contaminated meat- salmonella or other bacteria which would normally be killed when cooking the food. You should know that there aredifferent ways to prepare your meat to minimize these risks and research is definitely in order if you are inexperienced in raw food preparation to minimize your risks. Many of my clients like the idea of raw feeding but are uncomfortable with the actual feeding practice. A great solution can be to get one of the balanced frozen raw foods on the market. The bones are ground and the diet is frozen immediately after processing to minimize chance of bacterial growth. Finally, and obviously, with any raw food, all surfaces must be washed to avoid the spread of bacteria. This includes the dog bowl. Please be especially aware of this if you have children in the house.

[freediver]

I don't know how you can compare giving a dog fresh meat moderately cooked to feeding Maccas to a child FD.

It was actually quite easy. It seemed obvious. Both diets are unnatural and unhealthy, but will be chosen by many if given the opportunity. If humans have so much trouble controling their weight and not eating themselves to death, what hope does a dog have when offered unnatural food?

The second big concern with raw feeding is contaminated meat- salmonella or other bacteria which would normally be killed when cooking the food.

In other words, feed your dog cooked meat as a substitute for a healthy diet of fresh natural food, because you can't be bothered doing it the right way. Obviously when I say raw meat is better, I do not mean rotten meat. Though dogs are generally more than capable of handling that, which is why they like to bury their food and dig it up again when it is ripe, or roll around on a dead carcass that has been sitting in the sun for a week.

Please be especially aware of this if you have children in the house.

On other words, the dog will be fine, but their natural diet is a health hazard to you, so make your dog eat a more human diet out of convenience.

[Jovial Monk]

Vets want to flog you their "science diet" canine junk food.

My chihuahua (Tiffany) ate mainly chicken wings, once a week a treat of 100g of chicken hearts and boy didn't she wolf them down!

Demi gets a chicken wing, doesn't give a stuff about chicken hearts--eats them but doesn't see as special. Once a week some chopped up red meat from butcher 2 doors down at my shop.

Demi is becoming a fucking food thief! All dogs will eat something easily in reach, even Tiffany put a snout-shaped gap in a cream covered sponge cake but Demi is a class above that. fucking bitch ate four friands one time--stupid mother put them on a low coffee table and Demi no doubt thought it was all her Christmasses caome at one. Gulp, gulp, chomp, gulp, gulp took about 4 seconds. But she is better than that!

A packet of chocolate biscuits, only one or two left and not too carefully put away got stalked and pounced on by Demi, luckily choc biscuits have fuckall actual chocolate in them. Heheheh she had eaten one and was licking the top of the last biscuit in the packet: chocolate all round her mouth!

Then she managed to jump up and knock something down from the kitchen bench. Today it was an opened packet of pumpernickel bread. She was in the lounge busily chewing at about 1/3 of the slice that was left. Gave her a good wack on her back legs and threw her outside, won't help much but made me feel good

Walking the second stage of the Torrens Linear Park a young family was feeding pigeons, Demi runs up and next thing I know she is wolfing down half a slice of stale sliced white bread.

If you think Demi is a good food thief, well someone at my obedience class has a big dog, it will position itself inf front of a kitchen chair and chests it to the kitchen counter, uses the chair to get on the counter, opens the latch on a cupboard and does things like stal and eat an entire loaf of bread. Alas, I think this dog, Lotta, is teaching demi bad habits!

Cooked chicken bones might be bad but a raw chicken wing is great at cleaning canine teeth!

Can you imagine a circle of wolves, sitting around a campfire with bits of bison or deer on the end of sticks in the fire? Nah. Raw meat for dogs! dogs, like us, are lazy. Give them soft, cooked boneless meat and yeah they don't want to go back to meat they have to chew!

[mantra.]

On other words, the dog will be fine, but their natural diet is a health hazard to you, so make your dog eat a more human diet out of convenience.

No FD. There are 2 schools of thought on this - and just because you believe it right - doesn't make it right. It's got nothing to do with raw meat being a health hazard, although I prefer to chop up cooked meat.

Another caveat for feeding raw meat and bones to all dogs (including normally healthy dogs) is impaction and/or obstruction. Even raw bones have the potential to cause impaction or obstruction. The likelihood that raw bones splinter is less than cooked or smoked bones, however there still have been many cases of where a piece of a raw bone actually punctured the digestive tract or caused an obstruction. The counterpoint that most raw food enthusiasts make when there has been expressed caution for ingesting raw bones is ".... wolves and other wild canine species have been eating raw meat and bones in the wild for centuries...". My question is; how would we know if they had an impaction or obstruction? The wolves and other wild canine species would just die and be eaten by other carnivorous species. How do we know what the life span of all canine species in the wild is? How do we really know the ratio between wild canine species that die because of bacterial infection or bone impaction/obstruction and the ones that live long lives? There are "studies" on wolves and their raw diet however, the quantity of studies performed that favor the "wild canine diet" has about the same amount of studies that argue against the "wild canine diet" for the reasons I am mentioning here. As you can see the contentious nature of this issue.

There are also prepackaged raw food diets that are now becoming popular, as they 'claim' to be completely balanced for the needs of our dogs. There was a study performed by the JAVMA on the nutritional analysis of the most popular prepackaged raw food diets. The study is alarming. The claims of "nutritional complete" by the manufacturers are debunked, and the study discovered harmful levels of Vit A & D in some of the brands, and the quantity of bacteria actually found in these prepackaged raw diet products is especially eye-opening. Of course the manufactures of these prepackaged raw food diets hired attorneys to try and reverse the published study. As it turned out one of the manufacturers actually asked the JAVMA to double check their product. The results were still bacteria laden and now had harmful levels of Vit D. An excerpt from the JAVMA study is as follows:

[mantra.]

All dogs will eat something easily in reach, even Tiffany put a snout-shaped gap in a cream covered sponge cake but Demi is a class above that. fucking bitch ate four friands one time--stupid mother put them on a low coffee table and Demi no doubt thought it was all her Christmasses caome at one. Gulp, gulp, chomp, gulp, gulp took about 4 seconds. But she is better than that!

Your dog sounds like she's starving Monk. Are you sure you feed her enough? I've never had a dog that's been that desperate for food, although I know they exist. Many times over the years I've had to coax my dogs to eat and often if they haven't eaten for a day or so have had to hand feed them little bits at a time. I've got no idea why they behave that way - I've probably done something wrong in their upbringing.

The worst one of my dogs ever did was chew through this giant leather bag and a library book to get to a chocolate. But he was a Pyrenees Mountain dog cross Great Dane judging by his size, and only a 60 kg puppy at the time.

Gave her a good wack on her back legs and threw her outside, won't help much but made me feel good

Hmmm.. sounds like animal abuse to me Monk. I don't believe in hitting dogs - they always know when they've done something wrong. A stern voice is all that's needed.

[Jovial Monk]

And oh crap about raw chicken bones causing perforations of the intestinal tract.

[freediver]

The likelihood that raw bones splinter is less than cooked or smoked bones

In other words, raw is better than cooked, but life can still cause death. That still looks like one school of thought to me. You are confusing the issue of whether to feed them bones with whether to feed them raw meat. Raw, boneless meat is better than cooked, boneless meat. Raw bones are better than cooked bones. Raw is better than cooked, regardless of the situation. The bone issue is a red herring. It's like you are arguing that it is better to feed your kids sugar rather than veges in case the veges are smeared with human feces.

Your quote then goes on to confuse raw food with prepackaged meals. Obviously raw food might be worse if it is full of sharp bone fragments, or has been sitting on a shalf for a year, or is full of glass shards, or was grown in a test tube. That doesn't mean that cooked is better than raw. It is just an excuse for the convenience of an unhealthy diet of cooked food - because it can be better than an unhealthy diet of poorly prepared stale raw food.

Note that some extremist vegetarians will also claim that there are two schools of thought, one of which says that humans are better off not eating any meat. There is only one school of thought that is taken seriously.

My dad once left roast beef on the counter because the phone rang while he was in the middle of making a sandwich. The dog ate. My dad made sure it didn't happen again.

[Jovial Monk]

Oh yeah, my dog is starving, you can see the individual through the fur. Nah, 6 months ago the vet was hinting Demi was a greaseball "I wouldn't want to see her heavier than this" but all dogs, like all carnivores are opportunistic feeders: in the wild, a carnivore is always one feed away from famine.

And some direct negative feedback with a dog caught in the act (and only then) has some deterrent effect.